I agree with the grind thread

[GlassShadow]

Originally Posted by Manderlock

OR, (and this is what most peopel do) you start a new char and try your hand at that.

Also, you can get a majority of the skills just by doing the need quests, if you did this you have NO use for skill pts. Untill of course you get to the point that you just start buying them.

So I just recreate the same character type that I played before and replay the game again (another 80 hours of the same thing I just did before) so I can unlock the final skills for the same type at the end of the game???

Great Game Design Work Right There. Esp, when you can only create 4 chars.


Doesn't sound like a grind at all....

[Zarconis]

I'm not sure what the argument is about. My own playing experience has been one filled with mostly joy and nothing even remotely close to a grind.

By the time I reached Amnoon Oasis I had all but one single skill that I needed for the versatility that I wanted from my R/mo. There are a few elites that I want, but I have serviceable replacements. My problem from the start has always been, not enough energy and of course let's get more than 8 skills! The only "GRIND" I could even see take place is when I want to unlock skills from other professions instead of replaying the game over and over again with different characters.

As far as items go, I don't like the rewards the npcs give you, but I don't think runes or upgrade gear is good either. I for one have the exact bow for the most part that I wanted going in, a Zealous Short Bow of Enchanting, 15-28. I haven't invested anymore than 3 Drake runs, and all of the my "ub3r" gear has come from simply doing the missions. The drake runs have done nothing but add to my sell off at the merchants.

I just find this whole discussion, one with excellent points on both sides, to be a moot point. RPGS for years have done this. Has anyone ever played console rpgs ? or something similiar ? Sure you can get by with your standard 40 hour adventure, but if you REALLY want to do all there is, you have to go out of your way to do it. If you aren't going to bring elites into this conversation, then to me there is no conversation.


Let's ask a question:

WHAT SKILL(S) OR EVEN ITEMS ARE YOU "GRINDING" FOR ?


Outside the elites, I answer this question with nothing.

[Madjik]

Im not leaning one way or the other here, as i stated when I entered this thread I dont really mess with PvP all that often. One side answered my question and i still have yet to hear an answer from the other, what would it hurt the avrage PvE player (such as myself) or even those that fiddle with the PvP in addition to the PvE content, to give this button; this OPTION to the indivual player; to those who want it? As you just stated eventhorizen, the game IS based on skill. All you as the PvE player has to do is Not Touch the unlock skills button when you create a PvP only char and then your free to unlock all the content from PvE you want. Wouldnt a larger selection of skills to choose from at the get go make PvP all the more geared twords the skillful?

[Tyveil]

Originally Posted by Madjik

Im not leaning one way or the other here, as i stated when I entered this thread I dont really mess with PvP all that often. One side answered my question and i still have yet to hear an answer from the other, what would it hurt the avrage PvE player (such as myself) or even those that fiddle with the PvP in addition to the PvE content, to give this button; this OPTION to the indivual player to those who want it? As you just stated eventhorizen, the game IS based on skill. All you as the PvE player has to do is Not Touch the unlock skills button when you create a PvP only char and then your free to unlock all the content from PvE you want. Wouldnt a larger selection of skills to choose from at the get go make PvP all the more geared twords the skillful?

What would it hurt?????? An unlock button????? OMG I am sure you cannot be this dense (can anybody?)

Well... it just completely negates the rewards for playing PvE. Do you think PvE would be fun if you don't gain anything from it? Sure I can go through 100+ hours of playing PvE... OR I can just hit this "unlock" button??? You do that and I guarantee a lot of PvE players will quit the game, myself included (even though I'm only playing PvE to get to lvl 20 PvP). Don't take away the one real reward PvE players get. They already worked hard enough on the game to make sure that reward is not completely game imbalancing.

It's a lot like MTGO. Everyone starts off with the basic deck. If you're good, you can win vs. people with more cards. Eventually you will want to expand your deck by unlocking more options. The only difference is MTGO allows you to expand your options immediately by paying real cash. GW allows you to expand your options for FREE by playing their great game (not only do you get the reward, but you get to have fun doing it and not hurt your pocketbook). Sorry for people who refuse to play this great game but if that is your stance, you're stuck with the basic deck. This will never change, as well it should not.

[Madjik]

You seem to misunderstand the gist of my post. ITS YOUR CHOICE TO HIT THE BUTTON. You dont have to do it, and if you do, you only have yourself to blame for it. If its your choice to hit it and you dont want to DONT. Its that simple.

So seriously whats the problem? Further more I dont particularly care for being called 'dense'. I feel its a legitamet question. The reward is still there if you want it. you simply dont hit the button.

EDIT:: If its a reward you seek you can give some other incentive to play the PvE game. Perhapes PvE exclusive perks of one kind or another.

[Stur]

It is only considered a reward if you can't get it otherwise, the word your looking for I think is a temptation.

[Madjik]

temptation has nothing to do with it. ~See edit on previous post~

My point is if you dont start posting ways it COULD work, ways PvE players would be willing to accept and come to some kind of a medium between both worlds, all your going to end up with is a 30 page thread on why you should or should not implement said mesure with nothing but arguments on both ends.

Stop arguing start suggesting.

~Madjik

[Stur]

The best solution I can think of and that I've seen suggested here would be to chop the game in half. Make the PVP characters only able to PVP with other PVP characters. And the PvE characters can only PvP with other PvE characters. A kind of separate but equal solution. Kind of like having 2 games in one but the 2 games don't interacted and have no affect on each other. That would be an acceptable solution, that way if you never make your pvp character and unlock everything you never have to face someone that has.

[Epinephrine]

Originally Posted by Stur

What if they game all the skills but you still had to unlock all the equipment and runes and stuff?

It's a nice try at compromise, but it comes down to whether you feel there should be any edge in PvP due solely to time spent playing. If you feel there should be none, and that any edge should only be through skill then it is just as unacceptable. Making it less of an edge is nice, but it is still present, and if everything is equal then edges decide games. That's one of the reasons that big competitive gaming events happen live on networked machines; it eliminates possible edges conferred by ping, lag, hardware etc... it's all about skill. I'm not expecting that GW will be in the next cyberathletics competition, but there are players out there who want to PvP, and for whom it is less fun if they win a match due to having better gear, but also need to have the best gear so that they don't lose a match due to gear. An even playing field should be that: even.

[Shamblemonkee]

well then lets get oe thing right in the open straight away:

Are you solely asking for an unlock all skills? Or would you want equivilent equipment too?

[NiknudStunod]

I would be willing to give in on equipment but in a perfect game you could unlock those as well. Even playing field in pvp is what I want.

[FrogDevourer]

Originally Posted by Sausaletus Rex

Expand skill trainer lists not by adding a few skills but by orders of magnitude. They had four skills? Let them have forty. But let us decide which ones we want from them.
...
People don't need 150 skills to be competitive, after all. They just need the right 20 or 30, if that.

I have mixed feelings regarding this idea. It sure sounds like a good fix to the current skill system, but it is far from perfect.

I'm enjoying both PvE and PvP in this game. I'm a casual player, I like to start with a weakling and to level this character to Ascension, gaining strength and items along the way. I don't grind for hours although I don't mind a few item runs with the occasional lucky drop. I also like to play against human players. I'm not an elite competitive player, so I dont feel compelled to grind for hours to unlock everything I need. How does it translate into gaming experience ?

At first, the old ring system was still in my mind, and I was *very* disappointed not to be able to experiment with skills as I used to. I was pretty disappointed not to be able to choose from extensive lists from trainers, and most importantly to be given useless skills from quests.

Yet, very quickly I realized I found a lot more skills with side quests than I would with trainers or rings. Side quest are generally shorts, and I can log on, complete a couple of those, then unlock a few skills, and log off.

With so many unwanted skills available, I've been changing my skillset way more than I used to in BWEs. I'm even playing with skills that look bad on paper, just to have an ingame opinion about those. Thus, in a few words, I do like to get skills from side quests for the diversity it provides. Having the same skill available from further trainers is also very good. If someone feels like grinding when completing side-quests, he can just buy the skills he needs later. It's no big deal for PvE.

However, the impact on PvP can be frustrating. Trying to build a decent character is a juggling exercise. Take a template with 2/3 mandatory skills you still haven't unlocked yet and complete with yours. For instance, if you're still in the Jungle playing a healer, take the divine healer template for Word of Healing and Healing Touch, and complete with unlocked healing/protection. However, it can be frustrating if you want a specific secondary which doesn't fit the template. As a result, you're not playing the character you want.

Even worse is the current acquisition system for elites. It requires a lot of time to get some of those. Some bosses spawn randomly and far away from a portal, some won't be generous enough use the skill you need, and good luck capturing something with a monk if you don't have 'capture team', not to mention chain-caster bosses who make half your captures random. Simply put, the SoC socks.

Would your skill point suggestion change something for me?

It would indeed make PvP a lot easier, and less frustrating. However the PvE side of the game would become repetitive and boring: 'yay! my 124th skill point, gotta catch them all!'. No thank you. Getting a new skill can be fun, but completing yet another side quest for yet another skill point is bland. As a result, I would unlock only what looks good on paper and simply ignore the rest to skip grinding. No diversity in rewards, no incentive for experimentation.

So, what's my personal fix to the skill grind many people a complaining about?

First of all get rid of the $*%&! capture system. It's not fun after a couple of captures, it breaks the flow of combat, grinding for a boss spawn is not fun. Please, please, streamline a SoC that is smoother, requires some skill, and doesn't clog your skill bar. I would be happy to capture an opportunistic skill from a boss using a capture item (aka: the famous 9th skill) that doesn't require me to keep the boss alive for 5min.

Secondly, make elite skills more available. They already have an elite tag to make them balanced (or more accurately less imbalanced), so there is no need to make them so hard to find. I want to have choice in elites, not to make capture runs only for a handful of the most powerful ones. Generally speaking, make all skills easy to find from trainers but with few skill points. Trainers should be a shortcut for side quests (to make PvP player's life easier), not the main source for skills.

Thirdly, make a better use of premade PvP templates. In addition to the 'standard' build, provide 10/20 additional skills to tweak them (temporarily unlocked on this character), and especially toolbox skills which are frequently used. PvP players can have fun tweaking and optimizing templates without PvE. The idea is basically to use a template as a basic pool of skills that you can complete (or not) with what you have unlocked.

PvE players can use only what they have unlocked, or complete their stock with a couple of rare skills which are available on a specific template. But most importantly, rotate templates every couple of weeks to change the 'basic pool' of skills provided to players who didn't unlock many skills. This would bring some diversity in the battlefield, at least for those who didn't spend countless hours to acquire skills in PvE

Originally Posted by Sausaletus Rex

As for item grinding, I'd give out runes and upgrades as quest rewards instead of foci and swords and other items.

Regarding items, I do agree that grinding is not only useful but pretty much mandatory in PvP. Barring a couple of components (zealous or enchanting come to mind), runes are the most useful items you can unlock. If you competently use a full set of runes, your efficiency can skyrocket. That's currently the most unfair aspect of the game.

I wholeheartedly agree with Rex on this proposal. Make runes & components available through quests.

Personally I would also remove a lot of useless collector rewards. 80% of these collectors provide redundant junk items. Collecting item xxx sure sounds like a boring grind quest to me. However I like finding an unexpected quest hidden in explorables. Remove collectors and replace them by side quests. Remove junk items and make the reward more exciting: unlocked item (dragon sword, ethereal weapon...), additional or upgraded mod on a weapon/armor, a rare dye, a couple of rare crafting material, a change in your character's look, whatever can make rewards unique and special.

If a player doesn't want to grind to unlock something, he would just have to find the NPC he needs (on a fan-made database), and to complete the quest. No grind (repetitive killing for random drops), just standard PvE with specific aims.

In my opinion, the best way to get rid of the grind feeling for items is to complete random drops with side quests which would provide the item you need in a reliable way. Random drops would only give/unlock items earlier if you're lucky.

And like for skills, the best way to remove hardcore grind is to better use templates, and to provide a small set of upgrades and runes with them. Of course not all runes, and not the best you might want, but hopefully something you can use to tweak the template and/or to complete your unlocked stock.



Lastly the game NEEDS grinds and highbie money sinks (not crappy lowbie money sinks such as kits/bags). Quite a lot of people are happy grinders, enjoying 'it3m runz for the ubb3r l00t. There is already a solution to this PvP/PvE conflictual situation: dragon swords and black dye. Mostly identical to regular items, they are sought after and valuable. Why? Because people think they look cool, and you can show off those. That's where item grind can be used to its full extent. Make more items like these and people will have something to grind for. Useless in PvP but stylish enough to make players happy with a lucky find.

A second source of grind is the 'standard item + epsilon': a regular item which has some minor ingame bonus. Not an ubber item, just an item/upgrade *slightly* better than a regular one. Competitive players are always looking for the perfect weapon. Let's them farm endlessly for the 'slightly better than perfect' weapon. As long as it doesn't provide a huge bonus, I don't care. They have a 'godly rune of ubber vigor' +55hp, and I have unlocked a superior +50. Good for them. They're happy grinders and they have a minor edge (5hp/500), but to me this extra 1% of hit point is worth grinding. Fair even.

[LaMort]

Originally Posted by Stur

The best solution I can think of and that I've seen suggested here would be to chop the game in half. Make the PVP characters only able to PVP with other PVP characters. And the PvE characters can only PvP with other PvE characters. A kind of separate but equal solution. Kind of like having 2 games in one but the 2 games don't interacted and have no affect on each other. That would be an acceptable solution, that way if you never make your pvp character and unlock everything you never have to face someone that has.

This to me makes total sense and the only argument I can think of against this is that by splitting the ladder/competitons into two would effectively lower the userbase on each ladder. I would be nice to hear others points on this suggestion.

[Shadow_Avenger]

Originally Posted by NiknudStunod

This statement alone makes no sense. These same "anal retentive players", are already pvping with the skills they want. Not only are they doing it long before the casual gamer even gets close to the arenas but most are doing it with the full skill sets of there choosen classes because they are hardcore pvpers that wouldn't settle for anything but the best. These players have already grinded well over 100 hours and are now sitting pretty in HoH and Guild matches. I can guess this because I am not a power gamer but I am still at 20 with most of my skills and a lot of runes and hafts unlocked.


Now instead of giving everyone the unlocked skills option you have the best of GW getting better in pvp while the casual gamer is lfg for LA quests.


To the poster above me

There is nothing wrong with that option. The same option was given in BWE and it worked great. Those that wanted to pve got to do that and those that wanted to pvp got to do there thing. Giving this option takes nothing away from 99% of the gamers. The only people it effects are the power gamers who enjoy having advantages over other players because they can put in much more time.

LoL

I am out of work and have been playing this game since release day in the UK.
Every day, Yes I have clock well over 100hr in less than 2 weeks since release, I do not have All skills.
I have 1 lvl 20 N/E with one mission to do for ascention, 1 lvl 16/r/me and 1 lvl 10 Me/Mo. Yes I have PvP'ed using the auto lvl 20 option. But to me I would rather PvP with a character I have took the time to build and enjoy playing rather than insta max player with full skills.
As for Anal retentive yes there are alot of players like this, those who live and breath the game, and get extemely irate in PvP and PvE because there statergies didn't work and they are "GOD"
If everything is unlocked, what is there to search for, acheive in the game?
Squat, the game would just end up a glorified online fighting game. It would lose its appeal to thousands of players whilest only pleasing the minority.
Yes I would bet my bottom dollar that 90% of players actually play Guildwars for 2 reasons 1 its a MMORPG and 2 there is no monthly.
Yes there are people who play for the PvP. But this is the Minority of the world population.
At this moment it is still new, so there are alot of Powergamers, and Anal Retentive gamers, but in a few months these will move on to there next fix and those who actually enjoy GW for what it is will remain.
GW is an MMORPG with PvP, not PvP with a bit of MMORPG.

[Shadow_Avenger]

Originally Posted by LaMort

This to me makes total sense and the only argument I can think of against this is that by splitting the ladder/competitons into two would effectively lower the userbase on each ladder. I would be nice to hear others points on this suggestion.

I agree that would be a good solution.
You would have Pure PvP ladder.
And the system in place at the moment, with guilds etc.
I may be bias, but my personal feeling is that a pure PvP game is shallow and lacks depth.
If they implemented it this way they could leave the skills locked for the insta PvP chrs and only have the extra skills for those who played the game.
This way insta PvP would be balanced and no player would have the uber sword or better armour as they would have standard gear.
I dont see why a Insta PvP character should have any effect at all on the game world as they don't play in it.
It would also satisfy the instant action junkies out there.

[Tyveil]

Originally Posted by Madjik

temptation has nothing to do with it. ~See edit on previous post~

My point is if you dont start posting ways it COULD work, ways PvE players would be willing to accept and come to some kind of a medium between both worlds, all your going to end up with is a 30 page thread on why you should or should not implement said mesure with nothing but arguments on both ends.

Stop arguing start suggesting.

~Madjik

My suggestion is to keep the game the way it is. It's perfect!

[Epinephrine]

Originally Posted by Shadow_Avenger

I may be bias, but my personal feeling is that a pure PvP game is shallow and lacks depth.

Yup, you're biased. Pure PvP is one of the most popular gaming markets out there, with counterstrike, CS:Source, Day of Defeat and various other games being huge player bases. It may be shallow in the sense of an RPG, but it is rich with tactics, strategy and skill and is a rewarding thing to play for those who enjoy it.

[Madjik]

Originally Posted by Tyveil

My suggestion is to keep the game the way it is. It's perfect!

Then i suppose you will have to just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[goku19123]

Originally Posted by Stur

The best solution I can think of and that I've seen suggested here would be to chop the game in half. Make the PVP characters only able to PVP with other PVP characters. And the PvE characters can only PvP with other PvE characters. A kind of separate but equal solution. Kind of like having 2 games in one but the 2 games don't interacted and have no affect on each other. That would be an acceptable solution, that way if you never make your pvp character and unlock everything you never have to face someone that has.

Okay, this idea bothers me in that, if you split the game, you split the population.

Have you ever been fooling around in any arena, and you win a few times in a row, then some message pops up saying "No opposing party has joined." and the countdown starts over again and again?

I don't want to be in the kind of situation where I want to PvP somewhere, but no one is there to challenge.

[Sausaletus Rex]

Originally Posted by Manderlock

Well besides the leaving pre for post-serian anyway.

The point that I am trying to make is that PvP players shouldnt expect to be able to gain everything from PvP.

Why not? PvE character can get everything they want without having to bother with PvP? Of course, that's a fallacy because, as you say, we're playing one single game not a bunch of mini-games connected by a graphical UI. It all has to hang together or the whole is weakened. That's partly the reason that an "unlock all skills/item" button would be just as detrimental as what we have now. It devalues and detracts from the idea that you can et better through work and through progression. And relegates a RP character in PvP to second-class status. When, in fact, they should be equivalent. If I've taken the time and effort to level up my character and find the best items and skills I should be able to head to PvP adn stand alongside someone who's taken the PvP shortcut. Not be better than them. Not be worse. But to be able to be confident that our playing field is level and we'll have a good time because the matches are going to be decided not by some external force but by the people at the keyboards.

Part of the problem we have now is that there's little reason to PvP. The rewards are too shallow to attract people and worthless to those who've already become "competitive". Take the Sigil for example. You can win one in the Hall of Heros and that lets you get a guild hall for more PvP options or you can sell it so you can avoid farming for money and loot and the rest. But a PvE focused guild can just farm the money to buy it, too. They never have to touch PvP if they don't want to. While to field a team capable of taking the Hall you're going to have to spend a lot of time in PvE finding the skills and unlocking the things you'll want to have. PvP is optional, PvE is mandatory. That's not the way an organic, cohesive game experience should be working. What's optional should be secondary and forgettable but to those of us who enjoy the combat PvP play is anything but while it's the PvE you want to ignore as much as possible. What does doing well at PvP get your character? GvG gets you ladder position which doesn't do anything for you. Tombs will get you fame and with fame you'll earn skill points (And a fancy emote which is meaningless. That's a PvE type reward not a reward for people who don't care about the looks, they care about the effectiveness.) but to earn that fame you'll have already been leveling and earning far more from PvE than you ever would in PvP. Skill points earned through fame are also limited to the character that earns that fame so you can't earn them with PvP characters. And holding that hall will get you a chance at a sigil and a rare item. And you get XP for fighting in PvP, too, which can lead to more skill points but that's inconsequential unless you're using your RP character and the amount of XP you get isn't enough to level a high-end character all that frequently.. That's it, the rest is bragging rights. There's no meaningful reward for playing in PvP that you can't earn through PvE while the opposite is far from true.

Originally Posted by Zeru

The randomness is the big issue. It's not wanted and it's certainly not needed, as all randomness does is create grind. So take that out and make choice and ironically, skill at selecting skills important instead.

Yes, it's choices that are the important thing. And not just anyone's choices, player choices. What should be the most important thing when playing a game based on skill and strategy? The gray matter between your ears. It's your choices and your decisions that should have the greatest impact on your outcome. What we have now is limited choice, arbitrary decisions. Our skill lists are selected by the developers and as we go along and progress we can unlock more and more of them. But it's like a quest reward. Do you care what skills you unlock? No, you just do the quest and unlock the skills because they're free and won't cost you a point. Maybe a quest has a skill you want and that's great but most of the time it's just, "Well, that's one less skill to unlock with a skill point, I guess. Don't see how I'm ever going to use that one." You rush through them and you skill list fills up. Or you go to a website like this one and find out which ones are the one you want to do. Or you rush to the trainers. It's mostly out of your hands. There's no control, there's no choice, and so you just have to plug along and hope the random roll goes your way or that the next trainer has what you need.

But power, in Guild Wars, does not come down to having "better", it comes down to having options. To choice. The more options you have, the better off you'll be. You're limited in what you can have from all those options, though, so someone who's smart enough to take better advantage of possibilities has a fighting chance even if they don't have your options. Advantages can be made and overcome, that's how the game stays based on player skill and strategic play.

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

With so many unwanted skills available, I've been changing my skillset way more than I used to in BWEs. I'm even playing with skills that look bad on paper, just to have an ingame opinion about those. Thus, in a few words, I do like to get skills from side quests for the diversity it provides.

That's true. And there is something to be said for providing people with skills they'd never have considered, with options they hadn't explored. By leaving everyone to their own devices there's always a danger that things will blow up in their own faces. Say you have your pick of Mesmer skills. Someone could pick up Signet of Midnight, Cry of Frustration, and Mantra of Earth or something along those lines an have a very hard time of it. While someone else could buy Power Leak, Shame, and Migraine because they *know*. Populating skill lists with pre-determined skills means that there's less of a chance of people coming up with a bad build and that they'll have an introduction and some familiarity with what's been decided on as good things for them to have and know. So the current system can be very well used for holding someone's hand and slowly but surely introducing them to the idea of deciding for themselves, for sampling and experimenting with their options, and for the very concept of strategic flexibility that comes with being able to respec a character on a whim. And some of that would be lost by expanding skill availability in earlier areas.

However, I'm willing to live with that. Yes, people can come up with lousy stuff. They can come up with lousy stuff when you hand them things, too. Part of the game is learning how to think for yourself, how to make your own build, your own plan, and, for me, the sooner people are thrown into those waters the better. I'm much more comfortable letting people decide for themselves how they want to play and letting them recover from the inevitable mistakes quickly and easily than I am with having someone somewhere sit in judgement and manage their experience for them by deciding this skill is a starter skill and that skill is too advanced for new players so you need to reach the end game to get it. Let *us* decide because chance are we know what we want a lot better than anyone else. Structure things so that it's easy, that it's comfortable, and that mistakes and misassumptions aren't deadly, but if this is to be a game where the players are going to churn through strategy and plans and builds then we have to be trusted enough to be allowed to do so.

As for underused skills or skills people wouldn't have considered, well, that's why I'd like to see some way - any way - of testing skills before you have to spend a point on them. Or, failing that a way of refunding skills, relocking them, perhaps as there is with attributes. Skills are one of the few irrevocable decisions you'll make in the game and thee's no way of telling what you're getting unless you delve into a site like this one or otherwise have a lot of knowledge about the game. Just seeing a skill's description isn't enough, you need to be able to use it in a fight, to see what the range is, what the effect is, how it's timed and everything else. This is something that the gem and skill ring systems did but that we've lost (They also let players trade skills which is another absence in the current system. If established PvP guilds could quickly deceminate a critical elite, even temporarily, then a lot of their concerns about grinding vanish. And if someone could take a shortcut to tracking down a skill by buying it a lot of other grinding concerns similarly evaporate) and it's of detriment to the game. But for now I'll settle for just having some sanity brought back to skill acquisition and leave the problem of testing out skills to the future. Sure, if you give everyone more choice and less guidance some skills are going to be overused and some underutilized. So be it. If the skills are in balance then the ones overly popular or ignored need to be looked at to see if they're imbalanced in some way. Why are people flocking to this skill or that skill? Why's this one gathering dust? From a developer's standpoint allowing greater choice gives better feedback on their design. And, as well, part of the game is discovering a gem in the middle of a heap of trash. A skill might be overlooked and you could figure out a way of using it that makes it the Flavor of the Moment. That's all part of the meta-game, the constantly swirling and shifting overarching strategy that's driven by the player base. Giving people more choices to play with means more strategies and more skills will inevitably be thrown into that cruicible and the meta-game will be better off for it as threats and answers arise and are dealt with.

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

However the PvE side of the game would become repetitive and boring: 'yay! my 124th skill point, gotta catch them all!'. No thank you. Getting a new skill can be fun, but completing yet another side quest for yet another skill point is bland.

Well, you're already going to be getting that 124th skill point as things stand, if you want to unlock things. And what placing the emphasis on skill points does is to move the point of "Yay! New skill!" from completing that quest to when you actually select your skill. It's not your 124th skill point. It's, say, Doylak Signet. Or Peace and Harmony. Or whatever skill you want to find next. It's the difference between someone giving you a gift and a gift certificate. If they know you, a gift's going ot be nice because it's something you really want and they know that. If they'd don't then you're getting a box of socks or something else you're going to have to smile and pretend you're thrilled with. But if they give you a certificate or just a wad of cash then you can go out and get your own gift. And that's my point. It's you that's important and it's you that needs to make the choices.

What I would do, and I'll admit this needs some tweaking and adjusting to see what's optimal, would be to have the initial flurry of skill points come quick and easy, just as it is with leveling. But as you go along it becomes more of an accomplishment. Not so much of a struggle that it's easier to just start up a new character and blitz through things for more skill points to unlock more but enough of one that skill points have some meaning. There's a curve there but by making the initial runnup fast and providing options at the lower points someone can ride it just as far as they want. If you're going to be PvEing to your heart's content then you don't care because you'll eventually unlock everything anyway. But if you see PvE as an annoyance standing in the way of the real fun then you're going to get just what you need out of it and move on. And if you ever need more you can dip back into things. It allows the completists the time to advance and rewards them for sticking to things but it also allows those who think they know what they want to just get their feet wet and move on. PvE becomes not mandatory but necessecary but it's up to the player to decide when they've had enough. It moves the point at which diversity explodes and overwhelms rarity from somewhere near the end-game of PvE to near the beginning but by limiting things it still preserves rarity as a whole. If it's borring to you to find that 124th skill point, you don't have to. You can live with 123 or 100 or 50 or whatever it is you think you need.

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

make a better use of premade PvP templates. In addition to the 'standard' build, provide 10/20 additional skills to tweak them (temporarily unlocked on this character), and especially toolbox skills which are frequently used.

That's not a bad idea. I'd rather see 10~20 new premades and a wide variety of skills between them (None of this, "Every Ele gets GLE", or "the reason you take Mes is for Energy Drain" stuff) including a unique assortment of elites and a representative of every profession combination so that you could tweak and twist things as you want. But including a "sideboard" of skills for premades has some merit, too.

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

Personally I would also remove a lot of useless collector rewards. 80% of these collectors provide redundant junk items. Collecting item xxx sure sounds like a boring grind quest to me. However I like finding an unexpected quest hidden in explorables. Remove collectors and replace them by side quests.

I agree with you that most collectors are junk. However, I'd like to see them serve the same purpose that a skill trainer might serve for skills. Have them sell upgrade components and/or runes rather than that five thousandth protective icon. Then you can, as with skills, find them randomly (SoC versus IDing), obtain them through a set sequence (questing), and pay a premium to acquire them in a known location (trainers versus collectors). The more ways of obtaining something the easier it will be for everyone to find it and the less random and difficult it will be seen to be. So, if you need, say, a Major Healing Rune you'd know you needed, say, 5 Minotaur Horns and you could travel to Ventari's Refugee to get one. Maybe it would unlock, maybe it wouldn't, I'm not sure, but the point being you have a place where you *know* you're going to find it.

Lastly the game NEEDS grinds and highbie money sinks (not crappy lowbie money sinks such as kits/bags). Quite a lot of people are happy grinders, enjoying 'it3m runz for the ubb3r l00t. There is already a solution to this PvP/PvE conflictual situation: dragon swords and black dye. Mostly identical to regular items, they are sought after and valuable. Why? Because people think they look cool, and you can show off those. That's where item grind can be used to its full extent. Make more items like these and people will have something to grind for. Useless in PvP but stylish enough to make players happy with a lucky find.

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

There is already a solution to this PvP/PvE conflictual situation: dragon swords and black dye. Mostly identical to regular items, they are sought after and valuable. Why? Because people think they look cool, and you can show off those. That's where item grind can be used to its full extent. Make more items like these and people will have something to grind for. Useless in PvP but stylish enough to make players happy with a lucky find.

Right. It's the ascetic rewards that are the best sort of PvE rewards. Like the 15k a piece armor. It doesn't offer anything over the 1.5k sets to someone just interested in stats and finding that last little edge. But it looks different and it's special because not everyone has it so it's an accomplishment to be proud of. It's just optional. You don't *need* it to be competitive or to survive, it's just a nice little bonus. Items that are scare are valuable simply by dint of being hard to find. If there was a sword that only 1 out of every 100 people in game could have, that sword would be a hot commodity because it was rare (And we have such a sword already, the dragon sword). It doesn't matter what that sword is or does exactly, as long as it's not trash, because just because I can have it and you can't that makes it important, that makes it valuable, and that makes it desirable. It doesn't imbalance things because it's not more powerful than anything else. It doesn't degenerate things because although a lot of people want it, not everyone can have it. And such ascetic bonuses are the right way of going about rewarding those who want to spend their time "grinding" away.

So, black dye, the dragon sword, the etherial weapons, the 60k sets of armor, those are all excellent ways of serving those who want to acquire loot. Things like elite skills, runes, and hard to find skills, though, are not, because rather than simply being ascetic they offer significant amounts of power to those who can find them. It's better to have them easy to find (although not brainless) for the purposes of having a diverse and balanced environment.